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ALEX ROCA: Hello, and thank you for joining a very special Women Talk Money. I'm Alex Roca, your host for today's conversation today is the finale of our Women's History Month series, and I am positive we're going to have a fabulous conversation. We're going to be sharing a wealth of wisdom about navigating career choices and opportunities, the power of mentorship in our communities, and ways to invest in our futures and in our financial futures as well.
Now let's get into the good stuff and welcome our panel. We have two incredible women with us today, Jen Bennett, head of human resources here at Fidelity and long time advocate of our Women Talk Money community.
And we are thrilled to welcome our special guest, Shonda Rhimes. She is the visionary and master storyteller behind many of our favorite TV shows, from Grey's Anatomy to How to Get Away with Murder to Scandal to a little show some of us may have been binging recently called Bridgerton. She has a lengthy resume as an award winning writer, executive producer, founder, and CEO of the Shondaland media empire.
She is a New York Times best selling author with her memoir Year of Yes, which we're big fans of. And most importantly, she is a fierce advocate for women owning their narratives and their worth. This is why she is the perfect person to have this conversation with. We're so happy to have you join us today and share some of your own experiences, talk about career journeys, life lessons, and paying it forward. Welcome, Shonda.
SHONDA RHIMES: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
ALEX ROCA: Absolutely. Well, we have a lot to cover, so let's dive in. Shonda, we're going to start with you. You have obviously seen some amazing successes in building the Shondaland world and becoming such a powerful force in the entertainment industry, excuse me. Can you share one or two defining moments along the way that have really impacted your professional and your personal journey?
SHONDA RHIMES: When I think about defining moments, I think that the biggest one for me, and maybe this is not something people would think, but the biggest one for me was the decision to go ahead and go for this career. I could have gone to graduate school for-- I was thinking about being a doctor, thinking about getting a PhD. There were a million other career paths I probably could have taken, but this is what I really wanted to do, and it was the scariest one.
So the idea that I was going to take this leap and have this faith in myself, that feels like such a defining moment for me, because it was the moment I decided to believe in me and believe that it was possible. And it was not an easy road to get to where I am now, but it was so worth it to have made that choice.
I think maybe another defining moment would be-- I don't know if people this, but about 10 or 15 years ago, 10 to 12 years ago, I made the decision to start saying yes to everything that scared me. That's what culminated in my book, Year of Yes. My sister said to me one day, it was Thanksgiving, she said, you know what? You don't say yes to anything. And I realized that even though I'd had all the success, she was right.
By that point, I'd created Grey's and Scandal and How to Get Away With Murder. And what I realized is that my characters were living these enormous, exciting lives, and I was living behind them. I was living a very small life just writing them. I wasn't saying yes to events. I was sort of hiding and being an introvert. I was afraid to take new opportunities or chances. And so I decided to spend a year saying yes to everything that scared me.
And it changed my life profoundly, in ways that I never imagined, and opened up my world in ways that I never imagined. And I became a much more confident and less, I don't know, less shy and afraid person. I became a person who wanted to have adventures, and that was exciting.
ALEX ROCA: That's wonderful. And I actually want to dig in a little deeper into that. What were your biggest takeaways from your year of saying yes to all those asks, and did you learn anything new about yourself or any lessons where you now double down on saying no?
SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, interesting. You know what, the year was amazing. And I feel like I did so many things that were-- I went on a television show, I did public speaking, but I also did smaller things. And one of the things I think really stayed with me was I said yes to having difficult conversations.
I think we all avoid having tough conversations or having the hard conversation with your boss or the hard conversation with the family member because you're afraid of how it's going to feel, how they're going to feel, what the outcome is going to be. And what I learned was that the road to peace really lies by going through those difficult conversations. And so now I don't shy away from them. I jump right into them. And that is a huge lesson for me and a huge takeaway.
The other thing I learned from saying yes is that I learned to say no, which means that I learned to say yes to things that fill me up. I learned to say yes to things that excite me. But we all say yes to too many things. We all know this. We say yes because we feel obligated. We say yes because we don't want to seem mean. Now I'm saying yes to things because I'm excited about them. And the things that deplete me or make me feel like I'm less than or take away, I am comfortable saying no to now.
ALEX ROCA: That's wonderful. In one of our last sessions, we heard from the audience saying, no is a full sentence, and I think you're confirming that yet again. Jen, I'm coming over to you now. As somebody who's personally navigated several job advancements in the corporate world, and as somebody who recently just said yes to a new role, can you share a little bit about what you've learned? And quick follow up, what would you say to somebody who's looking to take their own next step towards growing their career?
JEN BENNETT: Oh my gosh. So many thoughts here, and I'm also still processing those great comments by Shonda. I love that one of the breakthrough moments for you, Shonda, was saying yes to yourself and believing in yourself. That's wonderful.
So maybe I'll jump in and talk a little bit about a recent role change that I made. Because for me, it was about saying yes to something that made me incredibly uncomfortable. I recently started a new job after being at the same organization, working with the same team for over three decades. Yes, I know that's a really long time.
But I was asked to take on a move and serve as the head of human resources, as you heard during our introductions, for Fidelity. And that was a completely new opportunity for me, and definitely an opportunity for me to say yes to something that made me uncomfortable. It's a completely different part of the business.
And so for me, I spent a lot of time or have been spending, I should say, a lot of time the past couple of months thinking about and finding my transferable skills, really focusing on the power of asking good questions, my team would say lots of questions too, and really appreciating the energy that I've gotten from learning something new every day in leading a new team.
I think it's natural when you step into a new role like that at any point in your career that there's a bit of a confidence gap that happens. So for me, I've been really trying to stay authentic to my leadership style and approach. I've been doing it for so long now. This is who I am. And to really approach building relationships as an important part of this transition. And that's been something that's really helped me to feel steady.
Some of the other things I've thought about or, I guess, learned over time have been that it's really important to recognize your career as a marathon. It's a long term proposal for most of us, and you make incremental moves along the way that drive you forward towards your goals. Sometimes you go sideways to go forward, and that's OK. I try to remind myself that you don't always have to what the end goal is, but it is important to think about your next goal and how do you continue to take that next step.
It's also OK to pivot and change your mind along the way and learn new things. I have had the privilege of doing that even within the same team, just trying new things over time. And I think that's a really important motivation for me too. You learn something from every role and you build your network over time. And for me, I found that patience is a skill to be cultivated, as I've thought about my career.
So those are some of the things I would think about as I think about transitions and some of the things I've tried to do over time. Just to close, I would say I'm still learning every day. And from discussions like this, it's something that you just continue to add tools to your toolkit.
ALEX ROCA: I appreciate your vulnerability, Jen, and talking about not knowing all the answers, but being able to fall back on the skill sets and the things that you've learned over the years that did get you to where you are. I think that's a great reminder for everybody listening today.
Shonda, you've talked about the importance of being a doer and not just a dreamer. Dreams are lovely, but it's actually the doing that changes things. Is there a skill that you've learned as a doer that has been particularly helpful in your career?
SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, wow. I think about what Jen said about not necessarily feeling like you're ready for something, but making a leap. I think the skill that I've learned the most is to believe that-- you always think, I'm in this room. I might not belong in this room. I always say belong in the room by virtue of the fact that you've made it into the room.
So that idea that you can speak up, that your voice is something that needs to be heard, that what you have to say has value, that you're not waiting for a moment for somebody to give you permission to be the powerful person that you are. I think that's probably the skill that I learned the most is really learning to feel like my word has value. My opinions matter.
ALEX ROCA: And you belong in the room if you're in there. I love that. Jen, for someone who's going into a workplace conversation about a new job or opportunity or maybe even a raise, can you share some tips to help set up a successful negotiation?
JEN BENNETT: Yeah, I love Shonda's comment about knowing your worth and believing in yourself. You belong in the room if you're in the room. I think adopting that mindset as you're contemplating any negotiation that you're going into, as you're thinking about a promotion or asking for a raise or whatever your next role is, is a really healthy mindset to have going in.
So we've got a slide that we're going to put up here that's got just a few examples of things that you can keep in mind as you're approaching one of these situations. I would say that in general, working a process helps you prepare. And I found that for me, at least, it's helped me to take some of the emotion out of any of these conversations, which it's easy to feel. These are not easy conversations to have necessarily.
So a couple of the things that are referenced here. Just the importance of doing your homework, gathering data, understanding the type of work that you do and what the market supports there. Thinking about your networking. That's also an important part of the preparation. I found that over time, really valuing and getting honest feedback from coaches and mentors, asking for that, and telling them, I don't want to hear the good stuff, I want to hear the critical stuff has been so helpful. Because sometimes we all have blind spots, and you just may not always know that. And that is really helpful going into these types of situations.
The other thing that I have found helpful is that when you are going in to make your pitch, as we defined it on the reference here, try to stay balanced. Yes, by all means, know your worth and use data to support the ask. I also think that you can take a moment to acknowledge growth areas that you have. I think by talking about yourself in a balanced way, what you contribute and what you're still working on, that can sometimes help the negotiation land well.
I think the most important thing that is probably listed here, though, as I've thought about this, is stay true to yourself and what you consider your own personal non-negotiables. There is no substitute for that. We've already referenced this a little bit. Shonda, you brought it up, which I loved. You really reach a point where yourself well enough to know what gives you energy and what drains it from you.
And for goodness sake, I would just encourage all of us to be true to work that gives us joy and aligns with our values and just recognize that, in a lot of cases, we spend more time working than with our families. And so I think for me personally, over time, choosing work that fills me up and helps me lift others up around me has become very important.
ALEX ROCA: Thank you for sharing those tips, Jen.
SHONDA RHIMES: May I add to that?
ALEX ROCA: Please.
SHONDA RHIMES: Because I love what you're saying, and I actually love that you put it in that very clear way. I always say never enter a negotiation you're not willing to walk away from, which is my way of thinking. Know what your bottom line is, decide what you're worth, and don't go into that room willing to take whatever is given to you. If you know that you can-- you've given yourself permission to be able to walk away, then you're really negotiating.
If you walk into the room and you don't know what you're willing to walk away from, they've already won the negotiation. You don't even have a chance. So I always feel like it's really important to know, like what you said, know your worth, know your bottom line, and emotionally be ready for what those parameters are, what your boundaries are.
ALEX ROCA: I'm taking notes left and right. Thank you for that add on, Shonda. This is a skill set that I think we all want to strengthen, knowing our own worth, showcasing our value, and advocating for ourselves. There are a number of studies out there that show that women tend to be less proactive speaking up, promoting our work, asking for the raise or the new opportunity. And sometimes it's true, but not always.
But let's talk more about these asks. So Shonda, as your career has evolved, how did you learn to advocate for yourself and your worth? And was there ever a pivotal moment where you truly found your voice?
SHONDA RHIMES: I think in the beginning I was afraid. I spent a lot of time-- my shows were doing well. And people sometimes laugh at me when I say this, but Grey's was this enormous global success, and I was still afraid to ask for what I wanted, because I felt like this could be taken away from me at any time. And that is a question of the self-confidence and deciding what you're worth. I did not know what I was worth. Power is not power if you don't have it.
And so for me, really starting to learn to figure out what are my bottom lines? What can I ask for? What do I feel comfortable? What do I need to make my life work? Was a really difficult thing, because it was a leap of confidence for me to really say, I believe in myself enough to step away if they don't give me what I want or to advocate for what I want.
And I think the big change came when I decided to move from network television to streaming, which means I left one company, which I had been with my entire career, and moved to another in an industry that we weren't even sure was going to be a big deal yet. We weren't sure what was going to be a big deal at that point.
That, for me, was a moment where I really thought to myself, if I'm going to make this move, if I believe in myself enough to make this move, what do I need to make that happen? What kind of life do I want to have? What do I want the creative world I'm working in to look like for me and for the people I'm negotiating for, my employees?
That was a really pivotal moment for me, because I really understood at that point that I had the power to ask these questions and to ask for what I wanted and to fight for what I wanted. I may not get everything, but at least I knew what I found valuable.
JEN BENNETT: I love that so much. The confidence and the power to ask for what you want, it is a difficult thing to do and a difficult thing to build to over time. What you're making me think about too also, Shonda, is even once you reach that point where you know yourself well enough and you have the confidence and you can fight, you can ask for, you can demand what you need, sometimes you're not always in the room.
And so sometimes it's also, I think, a matter of figuring out how do you build a network of advocates who will speak for you when you're not in the room and help those conversations along? And as I've thought about that, I think that's something that is only cultivated over time. And it's funny. I talk to my kids about this.
And some of it is really-- it's the basics. Treating people with respect all the time. Appreciating differences. Helping others, doing good work together as a team, that all helps build that network of folks that will speak for you when you're not in the room and help advocate for you to help push you forward. And I always try to remind myself that people aren't going to remember exactly what I do or say, but how I made them feel. And so I think that's an important part of this as you look to cultivate those relationships.
And then maybe one more thing I've grown to appreciate over time. I always try to look for these advocates that are really different than me. They have different styles. They have different approaches to leadership. Because not only does it help you grow, I think, personally and professionally, but I think when they can advocate for you when you're not in the room, you end up showing up much more well balanced as a result, because you've got folks that approach things very differently and think differently than you, and they're still in there advocating for you, if that makes sense.
ALEX ROCA: Absolutely. And I'm so glad that you jumped in and talked about advocacy. I know that for me personally, mentorship has always been so valuable, but I don't know where my career would be without the advocates that I've had throughout it.
And so let's talk a little bit more about the importance of a support system, because a big part of today's conversation is about mentorship, building a community, and finding people who align with you and your goals. Shonda, what has mentorship looked like for you both-- excuse me. What has mentorship looked like for you throughout your career, both in having mentors and being a mentor or even a role model to others?
SHONDA RHIMES: It's interesting, because I love what you're saying. I love what Jen is saying about having these relationships with people who can advocate for you. And one of the things for me that I did early on, that I don't even think I realized I was doing, was I treated all of my peers like we were all going to be the same level of successful as we were coming up, even when we were all just waiting tables and hoping for something. I treated everybody as if we were already successful and we were already in the industry, and I really valued their opinion.
Because I always say the people who are your peers today, they might be your bosses tomorrow. You never know. And to have people who are willing to speak for you, who you treated well and who treated you well, that's a vitally important thing coming up. So for me, a lot of it was talking with my peers and understanding my peers.
I know people don't consider that mentorship, but especially in the entertainment industry, one of the things that I found really powerful was when female actresses started telling each other what they were making for a living. That was a level of mentorship that was surprising, because nobody thought that they should do that. But it also taught people what they might be worth and what they might ask for, and it gave people something to lean on, and it formed a community. So one, I think it's the community that you form around you.
Two, I come from a family where I'm the youngest of six. So I have a family that's always been sort of a great group of cheerleaders. And as my career has moved on, I think it's been important to find people who are going to remember who you were and stay true to who you were and be willing to tell you the truth.
I had a hard time finding what people call traditional mentors. There were not a lot of people who-- women who were doing what I was doing. There were not a lot of women of color who were doing what I was doing. And I write about this in my book, because one of the things that happened to me was I decided that my mentors were authors. I would find them in books. I would read books about people I respected and I admired, and I would grab everything I could from what they had to say, and I would hold on to that until I could find somebody to talk about it with, until I could find somebody.
A lot of us feel like if we don't have a mentor right away that we're sort of not blessed. We haven't been picked to grow up and to rise in this industry. You don't need somebody to do that for you. You need to believe in yourself and to find what you can.
And now that I'm in the position that I'm in, for me, it's all about keeping the door open behind me. How do I create opportunities for there to be more women in this sector, for there to be more people who are growing? How do I make more young writers or more young producers? That's been really huge for me. And once I had the power to do so, I started creating programs so that we could teach people how to grow, so we could have young crew members, that we could grow up writers and things like that.
But it's hard to find that in industries sometimes where there aren't a lot of people who look like you. It's what Jen said. Find people who are different than you. Find those relationships. But if you can't find someone to be your mentor, it's OK to try to do that instead by having a community of peers and a lot of support and reading books and things like that.
ALEX ROCA: Absolutely. And I'd actually heard, Shonda, I'd heard that before, where it was look for biographies of people that you really admire and learn from their life lessons. So thank you for sharing that.
Now, I want to pivot slightly, because support systems aren't always just about advice or creating new opportunities. They're also about stability and security. And a big part of stability, especially when we're talking about growing a career or giving ourselves the freedom to go after new opportunities, is financial support. So Jen, question for you. How can we build a support team to help guide us through our finances or with our finances?
JEN BENNETT: I love talking about finances and money in general, so I so appreciate the question. And I'm reflecting back on Shonda's comment about you have the opportunity to build a strong community around you. You can collect these resources to help support you. And I think this is a great space to actually talk about that.
So I will share that not many of us, and myself included, I was definitely in this category, we were not really taught how to build a financial support team, or really even how to talk about money. I mean, I recall growing up in my house and even going into my early career, money was a bit of a taboo topic at my house. And so I never really learned about finances, wasn't really covered in school, and investing was a totally foreign concept.
So I think for me, learning how to tap into experts in this space really helped take some of that burden away. I wish I would have asked for help earlier. But the way I've grown to think about it over time is that like anything else, you want to be able to tap your expert when you have a need or you have a question and find somebody that you trust.
So think about it. When you're sick, you call a doctor. When your car breaks down, you have a mechanic. And finances are kind of the same way. Finding a good financial coach or advisor has really helped me to take some stress out of this part of my life, and really help me to stay on track and stick to a financial plan. So they have been helpful for me in thinking about a plan and protecting the future that I have been working so hard for for me and my family.
And as I've progressed, I would say I've really come to appreciate that a strong financial foundation gives you options in a lot of the other areas that we've already touched on today. So financial freedom really comes from building that strong financial foundation, and this is where experts can help you.
So we've got a slide here where we've got some examples of some of these folks that could be on your financial support team. And these are just some of the areas that you can think about. I would also say that as you are looking at some of these professionals, it's also important to take this opportunity to talk about these resources with your friends and in your community, back to community, as we've talked about. In this case, especially, women need to support and encourage each other in this area. We really all need to be talking more about financial well-being.
ALEX ROCA: Absolutely. I couldn't agree more in talking more about money and sharing more of what we know and what we're doing, and tapping into some of those resources that are available to us. Now, Shonda, what about you? Did your family talk a lot about money topics and financial literacy growing up, and how do you feel about financial well-being today?
SHONDA RHIMES: We didn't. My family was not a family that had a lot of conversation about that. My dad was the major breadwinner when we were younger, and he took care of everything. And so we were sort of raised not to ask the questions. It wasn't forbidden, it just never occurred to me.
And then we were told, work hard, earn a good living. So you work hard, earn a good living. But then what do you do with that when you start to have something that you want to save for or look to? I didn't have any idea. And so for me, part of it was feeling comfortable saying, I have no idea.
A lot of people, we sit in these conversations and people will talk about money and they'll talk about, I don't know, retirement plans or whatever it is. And I would have no idea what anybody was talking about. And instead of sitting there and trying to pretend I did, I said, can you tell me more about that? I don't know. That served me really well as I moved forward, because then I realized that I needed to find people who could tell me what I needed to know, and I stopped feeling afraid to think of money as something that I needed to manage or handle.
Demystifying it, I think, is the biggest thing that you can do, which is to find somebody to talk about it with. Ask your peers for advice and also find the professionals that your peers like or that you like and trust your gut about that. For me, that was a lot of what made me move forward and what was really healthy.
JEN BENNETT: Can I jump in on that, Alex, just quickly? Because I think when we talk to both women and men, everybody in this space, I think sometimes there's this natural fear like, oh, everybody else knows more about this. Everybody else knows the answer to that question. I'm the only one. And I think this is a really good time to pause and just recognize that nobody knows at all and really getting comfortable just asking your questions, starting where you're at, and asking your questions, finding that trusted resource.
I mean, for me, I work in financial services, and I did not the answers to these questions. So I do think that's a really important thing just to recognize and to ask the questions anyways and get in the conversation, work your network, find the trusted resources, and get going. It's never too late to get going.
ALEX ROCA: Absolutely. And I think there is so much shame that comes from the not knowing. But you're already an expert at what you do. You don't have to be an expert at this. And so thank you both for talking about how important it is to just recognize I don't have to know it all. I am curious, Shonda, was there a specific moment in your life where you felt like I made it? I finally achieved it.
SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, wow. I think that that came late for me. It really did. That idea that I've made it, I've spent so much time worrying that it could be taken away. And that goes partly to my understanding about money in a lot of ways. That I didn't spend time thinking like, it's here, I've made it. I don't know if you ever think you made it.
But for me, I do feel like now I've mapped out a future that I want, and that I have the resources to meet that future. And to me, that's my definition of having made it. You try to think, how do I want to live? What do I want my life to be like in 10, 15, 20 years? And now I know that I have the resources to make that happen. That to me feels like making it, because there's a financial security there, and there's an emotional security to that too.
ALEX ROCA: Yeah. And a good reminder is that that financial freedom is an ongoing daily effort, and I think it's something that it's important to think about. Now, Shonda, staying with you, what's the best piece of money advice you've ever been given?
SHONDA RHIMES: Oh, wow. I still think that goes back to never to enter a negotiation you're not willing to walk away from. But also, I think the best piece of money advice I've ever been given is that money is fantastic, but if you don't manage it well-- if you use it for just joy and buying things, that's one thing. But if you don't manage it well, it's going to go away. You see plenty of super successful people who lose it all. And so the idea of really understanding it.
I mean, I talk to my financial advisor and I still don't know a lot of things and ask a lot of questions while we do it, because I want to understand. So to me, it's more about that, the managing it well and holding on to it. And that is not something I learned when I was younger. It's something I've learned as I've gotten older.
ALEX ROCA: Thank you for sharing. Jen, same question to you. Best piece of money advice?
JEN BENNETT: I would maybe call out a couple of things here. I think although I've said growing up, we really didn't talk about money, I got some really good advice once I started my first professional job. So I was 22 or 23. My father said, hey, should check out that 401(k) thing. Your company offers one, and that might be something that you should put money in. And he would nudge me every year to put a little bit more money in.
And I just remember thinking, I'm 23. Retirement is not even on my radar screen. It's so far away. But I did it. And now after 30 some years in the workforce, I'm so happy I did. So I think it was one of those moments where I've appreciated small, steady steps over time. That's what builds a really good plan. It doesn't necessarily need to be these big, enormous decisions that you make and really high impact things. It is a lot of times the small, steady steps that you take along the way.
ALEX ROCA: And I'll share mine as well, because Jen, I smiled, because I had a very similar conversation with my father a while back. For me, it was the auto increase program. The power of 1%. Sometimes we think that's such a small number. How much real impact could that have?
And the truth is, it can be a huge impact to the future amount that you have to be able to retire with. And if you can automate that, even better, because out of sight, out of mind, and it'll grow, and you don't have to make that decision on a yearly basis, or you don't have to make that decision for yourself. It's already pre-made. And so for me, one of the best money lessons was just set it and forget it and let it continue to grow.
Now, Jen, one more question for you. What would you say to anybody watching right now who may be holding back? Maybe they're feeling hesitant to make a career move. Maybe they're unsure if they're in a good financial position to take risk, or maybe they're just simply overwhelmed with their finances. What would you say to help them build their financial confidence?
JEN BENNETT: I would say that you are not alone, to start. It is OK to have questions and to feel uncertain. All of us feel that way from time to time. No matter how accomplished you think you are, that is just part of the human condition. And we all feel uncertain and a little overwhelmed sometimes.
So I would encourage folks just to recognize there's help for everyone, regardless of where you're at in terms of your age or your income or where you are in your life, and it is never too late to start saving, as we've touched on. Having a plan is a great place to start. Those small, incremental steps, things like establishing an emergency fund, for example. Great place to start in terms of establishing some financial stability.
And you've hit on one of my favorites, too, putting some simple routines in place to help you save and check in. I love the practice-- you talked about automation, Alex. I love the practice of paying yourself first. So you can also do auto savings features, things that really, again, small things, but small, consistent practices that help you build that firm financial foundation.
So we talked earlier about working with a financial professional. They are a great resource. They can help you understand your options and offer reassurances if you're in a position where you've got that firm financial foundation to chase your dreams and take those risks. And if you're not in an ideal position right now, that's also OK. Those same financial professionals can help you create a step by step plan to help you get there. They can work with you to outline your goals and help align your goals with your personal values and your investing strategy.
So I would say just take the opportunity to educate yourself. There's so many resources that are available to you. Or simply ask. We are all here today in this session, because we want to help you take that next step. I mean, at the end of the day, life is short and there are no guarantees. And so this is where that support system that we've been talking about can really come into play and help you take whatever step you decide to take next.
ALEX ROCA: Now, we've talked a lot about advocating for yourself, knowing your worth, and building a support system. But how can we think about passing on what we've learned, and how can we create a lasting legacy to help inspire others? So what does legacy mean to each of you, and what would you say to women or even your kids who are looking to build their own legacy? What do you want them to learn from you? Shonda, let's start from you, and then I want to hear from you, Jen.
SHONDA RHIMES: Well, I think for me, legacy means not-- it's not the name I have. I don't want people to remember my name. I don't want people to need to my face. For me, legacy is the change that I leave behind. And I really want to create a world in which I've done something to leave some change behind that is powerful and good for people.
And for my daughters, I really want them to grow up believing and knowing that powerful women is a norm, not a specialty. I want them to understand that we're not novelties, that this world can be owned by them the same way it can be owned by anybody. And so for me, I feel like that's the legacy I want to leave behind, where being a powerful working woman is a normal thing.
JEN BENNETT: I love that. Powerful women are not a novelty. I'm taking that one with me, Shonda. I love so much of what you said. I think for me, I think about legacy through others. What are you leaving through your family, through your friends, through your peer network, and leaving through others to help leave things better than you found them?
And so for me, I always talk about, again, I talk about this with my kids a lot, a legacy of kindness, treating people with respect. And especially for women, women supporting women is, I think, a really important topic and one that I would love to see us continue to pay forward in the future. I love spending time with the next generation. I think they're so brilliant. And how they are thinking about things, how they're using new tools and engaging with their careers and navigating a complicated set of decisions in life already is super energizing for me.
And then I would say from a career perspective, just trying to open as many doors as possible. Again, sort of paying it forward and thinking through how can I help the next set of future leaders be as successful as possible, opening doors for conversations. And in the money space, making sure that folks are more comfortable talking about money and all the great things that it can do to help you create financial security.
ALEX ROCA: Thank you both. I'm actually going to pull the next question right from the chat. Shonda, you talked a lot about believing in yourself and just advocating for yourself. I wonder, has there ever been a part in your career where you have felt that imposter syndrome we hear so much about?
SHONDA RHIMES: I think there are plenty of times when we all feel it. I always say I never define it as this. I tried hard not to give words to things that make me feel less than or negative. So I'm always like, I don't believe in imposter syndrome. But I do believe in those moments where you wonder if you're supposed to be there, if you know what you're talking about, if you've done all the preparation, if you're in the right space.
And so I think that happens a lot. It happened every time I pitched a new television show. I felt a sense of panic. And why is anybody going to listen to me? And what do I know more about television than anybody else? At the time, it really felt like this is such a new world for me. So there are always times when you feel that way.
But I always think the best way to push through it is to lean on what you know. One thing I knew was that I was a good writer, so I was leaning on that. And I feel like even when you feel like you don't belong, there are so many parts of you that are competent and capable that got you where you are, that you can push through with those. Hang on to those. I hope that helps.
ALEX ROCA: I appreciate that, and I like hearing you say I knew I liked to be a writer. But earlier in the conversation you had said, hey, I had considered many different paths. Maybe I want to be a doctor, maybe a PhD. How did you finally make the decision to move forward with the path that you chose?
SHONDA RHIMES: All of the paths that I was looking at were interesting to me, but the one that almost didn't feel like work, the one that brought me the most joy, the one that I was happy to do no matter what was writing. And I knew that. I knew that writing was really special to me. It felt like that's my talent. That's my secret sauce.
And so deciding to actually just pursue that was a big leap, because it's a scary leap. I didn't really know that you could make money being a writer at the time. And I hadn't been raised in a way to just go out and do something creative. I didn't have that cushion to fall back on.
ALEX ROCA: I appreciate that and great words and recommendations, just advice overall. We are coming up on time, though, so just two more quick questions for you. What one word describes a woman who knows her worth? Shonda, let's start with you.
SHONDA RHIMES: Courageous.
ALEX ROCA: Love it. Jen?
JEN BENNETT: I'm going to go with unstoppable.
ALEX ROCA: Oh, that was going to be mine, but I'll change it and I'll say empowered. And finally, we always like to wrap by asking, what is one takeaway from today's conversation that you want viewers to remember? Jen, I'll start with you.
JEN BENNETT: Oh, the one that I would want folks to take away, lots of good comments, I think, in today's session, but the one I would want folks to take away is to ask for help. Don't be embarrassed. Don't be ashamed. Ask for help. Lean on experts, and start today with whatever next step makes sense for you.
ALEX ROCA: Shonda?
SHONDA RHIMES: I really loved what Jen said about preparing to negotiate, really doing the work that gets you to where you are so that you can walk into a room knowing your worth. For me, I feel like that is really powerful and really important for us. It helps you feel like you belong in a room when you are really prepared to get there. So all of that work seems like something I think people should take away.
ALEX ROCA: Absolutely. And personally, for me, one of my biggest takeaways, Shonda, comes from you. The power in believing in yourself and knowing what your worth is is so important. So I hope you all listening today take a little bit of time to think about that and think about what your worth is so that you can believe just a little bit more in yourself.
Shonda, Jen, thank you both so much. This conversation has been a fantastic wrap up to our Women's History Month series. To everybody tuning in, I hope this conversation gave you something meaningful to take with you. Maybe a commitment to saying yes to a new goal or connection, or maybe even that raise. Again, Shonda and Jen, thank you. And to all of you watching, thank you for joining, and we'll see you again soon. Have a wonderful rest of the day.